Jim Zemlin Lives in a Cave; or Linux Zealots Should Get Out More
26 Sep '08 - 21:27 by benrOSNews recently posted the following: Linux Foundation's Zemlin Declares Solaris All But Dead, which in turn links to the InfoWorld article: Is Sun Solaris on its deathbed?
Mr. Zemlin hammers on the fact that Solaris has only two redeeming qualities, ZFS and DTrace, which he degrades as "minor features". Both these technologies are revolutionary advances in computing and storage... "minor" my ass.
"That's literally like noticing the view from a third-story building as it burns to the ground." And the Linux community is working on rival technology, Zemlin adds.
That quote is jibberish. And asserting that the Linux community is working on rival technologies? Ummmm. SystemTap is a horrible failure (following image from OSCon) and there is no rival for ZFS.
"The only people I hear talk about DTrace [Solaris's technology for assessing program and OS behaviours] and ZFS [the Zettabyte File System] as competitive features [are] Sun Microsystems sales representatives. It's not something I believe is impacting the market in any way,"
Its quotes like this one that show that Mr. Zemlin is living in a cave... I mean, he is the Executive Director of the Linux Foundation. Honestly, do you expect him to say anything else regardless of validity? He's surrounded by Linux users, vendors, and advocates based on his station. Users excited about (Open)Solaris aren't likely going to be hanging out with this guy; rather, he's going to hear from Linux users interested in the excitement around ZFS, DTrace, etc, and ask why they can't be provided to Linux. Of course, its these very users we'd like to stop looking and start trying OpenSolaris itself.
"Customers are pretty aware that Unix is a more expensive legacy architecture. They continue to support it because they don't want to change their legacy apps over to a new platform because of the costs," Zemlin said. "But they know now they eventually need to do it because Unix just doesn't have the combined might of all the different organizations and individuals that are developing [for] Linux."
Now, lets get some things straight here. OpenSolaris is free, as in both beer and freedom. It runs beautifully on non-Sun hardware, and in fact I'd say at the present, it runs better on Dell/Supermicro/etc. hardware than Sun Fire servers(which has got to be turned around soon). It binary compatible, supports legacy SPARC, cutting edge Niagara SPARC, as well as X86 32 and 64bit, in fact I'd say that Solaris handles intermixing 32/64 bit applications significantly better than Linux.
Linux still has huge problems with quality support offerings. Sun offers a significantly higher quality of support because so much is in house.
End-to-end, Solaris/OpenSolaris is drastically cheaper than Linux. This doesn't even take into consideration the savings you get by using ZFS rather than buying high cost NAS solutions for your Linux infrastructure.
Given Sun's own Linux support on its Sparc and x86 servers, Zemlin suggests that it should make ZFS and DTrace available under a Linux-compatible license.
And there it is... Linux advocates bash Sun & Solaris right, left and center, but after it all they just want to rape the OS. Not share, not collaborate... rape. I have never been an advocate of GPLv2 release of the code for this explicit reason. Its like a bad date, she smiles and winks a little, calls you names but takes you home anyway, and in the morning your wallet is gone. Is it possible that I'm wrong? Perhaps, but once you've gone down that road you can't turn back and I'm afraid that Sun will give up the advantages that it has, throwing away thousands of man hours of development effort and end up becoming a SGI, forever doomed to embrace Linux or else.
Now, there was one very important point made in the article, but not by Mr. Zemlin of course:
One company that is moving from Solaris to Linux is Sesame Workshop, famous for TV shows such as Sesame Street. A key reason is that more people are available to support Linux than Solaris, says Noah Broadwater, vice president of information services at Sesame Workshop. "I honestly have one person who is certified on Solaris. I have four people who are certified on Linux," Broadwater said.
First, lets point out that the customer is moving from an existing Solaris SPARC install. This is likely an infrastructure that is 3+ years old and perhaps like the vast bulk of Sun customers still running on Solaris 8; regardless, there is a very big difference between moving from an older SPARC install to X86 Linux versus moving from Solaris/X86 to Linux/X86.
The point about qualified people is a very big problem! I've been extremely interested in working toward solving it but had little traction thus far. There are too few of us blogging, too few learning resources, and certification is expensive ($300*2 for examines, making certification $600 assuming no training and that you pass the first time). On top of it all, many of us, new and old alike, aren't convinced that certifications are actually useful in instructing new admins.
I'd go so far as to suggest that Sun Ed. and the community (SysAdmin OpenSolaris Community Group) should work together on improving the certification criteria and tests, reducing it from 2 to 1 test, and then dropping the cost under $100.
So long as we lack skilled and interested SysAdmin's in the field we'll continue to deal with Linux advocates bashing Solaris with their hand out.
We need:
- Better systems
- Better training (corporate and community)
- More admins
Wow they got 4 certified linux guys – wow that must be all of them in the state!
I have seen this argument, but mainly with windows – we have more MSCE guys than we know what to do with, and can’t find a linux guy for love nor money….
More admins + better training is the solution to pretty much every OS.
What killed Solaris was when sun walked out on Uni – no exposure to Solaris, so its left to Windows and linux. Or if they did see a Solaris box it was 7 or 8 running on a 5 year old bit of kit vs brand new windows box. Why do you thing Slowaris name stuck.
kangcool (Email) - 26 September '08 - 22:31
Well ZFS is unrivaled now, but do take a look on btrfs if you will. Sun’s refusal to relicense Zfs to something Linux compatible will only decrease its popularity!Ahmed Kamal - 27 September '08 - 01:19
What I find odd is that Sun is still a member of the Linux Foundation? Why does Sun bother paying an organization money that does very little other than insult them?Oh, and Ahmed: Sun relicensing ZFS to something less free wouldn’t increase Solaris popularity at all, it’d just be grovelling.
Johnny - 27 September '08 - 01:49
Repost for someone else:Ahmed:
“if systemtap is any indication, i don’t think anyone will be holding their breath on btrfs ”
Johnny - 27 September '08 - 01:59
Speaking for a decently sized (1,000+ server), primarily linux shop, thumbs up for the “solaris OS rape” plan. Directed by a more pragmatic ‘literati’ set, this would have been done pretty much immediately.Everything we have running zfs is solaris proper (rolled “back” from snv), but we are, to a large extent, tied to some—frankly vastly superior to solaris’ offerings— kernel-level software.
I think outside of a small set of paid advocates and the fringe zealot crowd (like the lisp crowd on reddit, for comparison), the majority of admins concerned with usefulness wishes there was some license-appropriate way for solaris and linux to make friends..
..and date.. and get married and have a dozen zfs/dtrace-laden children.
daniel (Email) - 27 September '08 - 03:36
ZFS and all the other technologies really have no place on Linux. Thin about it this way. What brand of Linux is really Linux anyway. There is barely binary compatibility between versions and distributions so why would I trust a key component with so much depth on a system such as that. Needless to say though that the real mission critical items that I just need to work for extended periods of time don’t reside on Linux. I have systems I would move to Solaris today if I had the manpower to do the port. Until then the Linux systems run as virtuals that I can just trash when needed.Nick (Email) - 27 September '08 - 03:38
There is no doubt that Solaris is alive and well. It would be reasonable to say that the attack is more from the side of fear of a superior product that may threaten Linux flavors as it gains momentum.“A pessimist always fails before the optimist succeeds”
Mike La Spina - 27 September '08 - 08:23
‘One company that is moving from Solaris to Linux is Sesame Workshop, famous for TV shows such as Sesame Street. A key reason is that more people are available to support Linux than Solaris, says Noah Broadwater, vice president of information services at Sesame Workshop. “I honestly have one person who is certified on Solaris. I have four people who are certified on Linux,” Broadwater said.’I have been told this argument to my face, before. That’s really hitting the nail on the head, right there.
There really aren’t enough people with a proper understanding of what UNIX is, and how it actually works. Most shops (and this was also the case in the story I was told to my face) employ “systems administrators”, as opposed to system administrators or even system engineers, because…
those “systems administrators” are cheap! Cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap! Those people don’t have much experience, most of them are kids that got their first start on an x86 PC bucket at home – on Windows, no less – then tried GNU/Linux somewhere along the way.
Because if you really know your stuff, if you’re really into it, you WILL KNOW that GNU/Linux can not be cheaper than (Open)Solaris. Why? Well, OpenSolaris is gratis and free as in beer, runs on the same hardware, runs the same software, AND it has people which are much more technically skilled and competent than those CHEAP “systems administrators”.
In other words: OpenSolaris has SYSTEM ENGINEERS.
And those are damn hard to find. Between the “Gray beards” (which I deeply respect) and the short-attention-span generation Y, the knowledge of the old arts (but still high tech) got lost somehow.
We have to pull together and fix that. Take on an apprentice, or several of them, and teach them about UNIX and Solaris in one-on-one sessions (that’s what I do, anyways).
UX-admin (Email) - 27 September '08 - 09:46
kangcool, I agree Sun dropped the ball with universities. It’s obvious that if you spend 3+ years at university using OS and hardware from a company, that you are going to become familiar with those products and, later on when those users are in decision making positions, will likely go on to buy what they are familiar with. Sun know this, but today it seems as if only Microsoft are doing itSun are pushing hard with OpenSolaris (the distro), have ramped up Campus Ambassador plans (at least in the UK, but I believe globally) and I believe are providing some very good reasons for people to be more interested
Ben, I fully agree with your comments about cheaper certification. However, is it not already the case that the exams cost around $100? Attending the training courses is not a requirement… a good Solaris book in combination with the sample exams and you’re in a good position to pass first time!
Lewis (Email) (URL) - 27 September '08 - 11:38
“Its like a bad date, she smiles and winks a little, calls you names but takes you home anyway, and in the morning your wallet is gone.”hahaha rotflmao… =)
it’s true what zemlin is saying in a lot of ways but why should we care – i feel solaris’ main goal should be focusing on quality, then market share will follow. linux is the new microsoft. pushing out crap before they can finish coding it, stealing other peoples homework and supporting it with cheat sheet engineers.
sorry to say but sun should have never bought into this whole linux like thing from the beginning – solaris is already vastly superior.
p
phil - 27 September '08 - 13:55
I think it’s true to say that there’s just so much good stuff about Solaris that it’s hard to even communicate.A DBA that got converted when he started with us two years ago said to me last week that he was concerned about moving a database from one box to another because it would be a shift from 32-bit Solaris to 64-bit Solaris. When I told him that a 64-bit Solaris kernel would quite happily run 32-bit binaries he was completely taken aback, and it simply hadn’t occurred to me to mention this to him before.
Similarly, our security guy asked me if it was worth moving a system from Linux to Solaris for better PostgreSQL support. The honest answer to that is “no, probably not just for that, but you’ll get a whole bunch of other good stuff which you’ll want to sit down to hear about”. He just heard the “no”.
I also agree that there aren’t enough people blogging; I still find it hard to believe that people don’t know even basic stuff already. What level do we need to pitch at? Can we assume even a knowledge of what POSIX is?
Ceri Davies (Email) (URL) - 27 September '08 - 22:27
You do know that the Linux Foundation is funded by NetApp, right?blohard (Email) - 28 September '08 - 02:58
Out of the certification tests out there, Solaris’s is pretty cheap to take.As for the linux zealots, they are a grabby bunch. If they can swipe it, they will. Then proceed to tell you that linux needs to be run everywhere... on your watch, to your playstation to your desktop and servers. Personally linux is interesting only as an academic study. At one time before I could afford decent hardware, I ran linux boxes. Nowadays I have Solaris on my servers, and OS X on my desktop.
Dennis Behrens (Email) - 29 September '08 - 00:28
I’ve been a long time user of Sun products (Sun-2 computers in college) and system administrator for Solaris systems for years. In my organization I am seeing lots of conversions to Linux mostly because more of the computing world is moving that way. There’s also some key software that’s just not available for Solaris – ITT IDL/ENVI (we’ve asked for it numerous times but there’s just not enough demand for ITT/RSI to support it on x86/x64; they do support it on SPARC) and Matlab (no plans for x86/x64 and while they currently support SPARC, they plan to drop it next year).I think also that the variety of Linux distributions make it easy for people to install/test things at home and maybe “feel good” that they got something up and running so easily. Then it spread to office machines and there’s no real understanding of some of the more “enterprise” features that really makes Solaris systems more reliable.
Joseph Kwan (Email) - 30 September '08 - 01:45
Well Ben I also wish that a good program will start up for training. Windows and linux training is cheep it is also covered by student loans if taken as a diploma in network engineering in new zealand. I would be happy with a cisco style module system that has low entry costs. ie: CISCO CCNA1,2,3,4 APACFile server admin cource could include:
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Important all questions in exams must be available from a single source. ie: Ebook/online content freely available.
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